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Is Ultidev going down? - Microsoft Windows Azure and Ultidev competition.
tadira
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:26:11 AM(UTC)
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I wonder how Ultidev products and its HttpVpn concept in particular will be and can possibly be competing with upcoming Microsoft Windows Azure platform (see http://www.microsoft.com/azure/default.mspx)? Microsoft Windows Azure “Cloud OS” promises to provide both powerful and highly scalable hosting environment for Web Applications as well as their service enablement behind the firewalls (meaning developers can easily deploy their applications behind their firewalls and expose applications through Windows Azure external hosting environment without any code changes or opening listening ports in the firewalls, http://www.microsoft.com/azure/servicebus.mspx
). How do you differentiate your products’ offering for those who are looking at either Ultidev or Windows Azure as two alternatives?

Thank you,
Todd
Ultidev Team
#2 Posted : Sunday, November 16, 2008 4:47:19 PM(UTC)
Ultidev Team

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Hi, Todd.

We are not terribly worried about Azure just now. For starters, we are very close to the finish, and Azure is probably a year or so away from being anything close to real. The only thing that we probably have to change is how fast we will need to grow to stay ahead of MS, but that is something pretty achievable.

HttpVPN and Azure may be competing in a very broad sense, like HttpVPN competing with regular web hosting solutions. HttpVPN addresses a very real pain: virtual inability of non-technical consumers and small businesses to host their applications right next to where their business data - at home or at the place of work.

What Azure really is - is still not quite clear. We watched their demos and other marketing materials, but details are somewhat sketchy at this point. What we understand is that Microsoft will give people servers and ability to deploy and scale their applications, for a price that is yet unknown, and with connection to customer's own data in a way that does not look much simpler than current hosting technologies. At this point in time, assuming MS data connectivity solution is simple & easy (a rather generous assumption) the only clear value of Azure that stands out is ease of scalability.

HttpVPN is not really about scalability. When you need to scale, you are likely grown out of HttpVPN and need to get a real datacenter, or maybe get on Azure platform. Azure and HttpVPN may be trying to solve similar problem, but for very different target audiences. Besides, HttpVPN is not only a connectivity/hosting platform, but rather a sales & marketing tool for independent software developers. In concept HttpVPN is much closer to Apple App Store than to Azure. With HttpVPN a developer will create an installable, redistributable web application, that will be sold and accessed through HttpVPN Portal. UltiDev will take percentage from softwares sales, but will help developers in promoting and selling their products to greatly underserved audience of small businesses and consumers. Currently your neighborhood dry cleaner may not be able to have a web site telling whether your --- !!!SPAM!!! --- are ready, because currently it would require an expensive plumbing (in money or skills) to run hosted application. With HttpVPN someone may create an application that can be sold to dry cleaners on a very large scale and therefore it would cost around $99. HttpVPN makes implementation of this case very easy. We would like to find out how the same case would be implemented with azure and what costs for both a developer and a consumer would be, before we can judge whether Azure is a threat.

Another point to make, is that we are somewhat skeptical about the whole "cloud" concept. We believe that given a choice, people would rather keep their own business data close, instead of trusting the "cloud" to keep it safe.

Microsoft seems to be having pretty hard time explaining what Azure does, but the promise of HttpVPN is very simple: if you are developer, we'll make your inside-the-firewall web application accessible on the web in a secure manner, and we'll make a quarter only when you make a buck.

Please let us know what you think.

Best regards,
UltiDev Team.
Please donate at http://www.ultidev.com/products/Donate.aspx to help us improve our products.
jtaylor
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:23:15 AM(UTC)
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I agree with Todd and quite disappointed with Ultidev response. First of all there is nothing to be “skeptical about “cloud” concept.” It is already out there and widely adopted by the industry . Amazon launched EC2, Microsoft Azure, Google and salesforce.com also have it. Secondly , Microsoft Azure documentation clearly states (and in very simple terms) “The Service Bus [part of Windows Azure] provides the communication infrastructure that protects developers from having to create the complex code necessary to achieve seamless connectivity. It allows you to expose a service to the Internet from behind your firewall or NAT.” Isn’t that what Ultidev is promising to deliver (and still did not)? Not to mention that Azure gives much more than just connectivity. It provides storage, security and identity management in interoperable and standards based way along with the automatic scalability that can hardly be bitten by small service providers.

Ultidev Team
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 23, 2008 12:41:24 PM(UTC)
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Hi there!

We are happy to continue this conversation. Hopefully we'll be able to clear up some points.

If there is one very crucial question to ask yourselves when looking at UltiDev HttpVPN vs. MS Azure, then it's who is my target audience? If it's anyone who can NAT a route, then Azure wins. If you target someone who knows only that the router is a box with blinking lights sitting in the corner, then we are certain that's HttpVPN is the winner.

Here are other key issues to consider:

1. Will "regular people" be able to deploy an application by themselves in their network using Azure? MS says it is possible, but whether it is possible is beside the point, because it is perfectly possible even today if you know how to fiddle with the router. The most important question is how easy exactly will it be for a non-technical person to deploy an Azure-based app in their network? If deployment requires an IT professional, then Azure is not a threat to HttpVPN at all. HttpVPN makes installation and configuration of an Internet-facing web application not much different from regular Windows app. Until we know more about how exactly MS is making connectivity through the firewall work, and how easy is it to create an installer that will do all the connectivity magic, talk about UltiDev going down is going to remain premature.

2. Assuming MS matches our offer on the technology side, we still have another feature that sets us far apart from Azure. It's the App Store - a part of HttpVPN Portal where developers market, sell, collect revenue and ensure legal distribution of their software. Its idea is similar to Apple App Store (although we started working on our store well before we ever heard about Apple iPhone), with key difference being that our target audience is much broader - it's everyone with a broadband connection. HttpVPN ensures that application user won't be able to have Internet access to the application over HttpVPN unless he completed the checkout process. We are not aware of Azure doing something like that.

3. Cost. Since applications and data are hosted by users, our operations costs are low and predictable. We will have to run a tiny fraction of servers compared to what all the big boys are going to deal with. This will translate into zero upfront cost of using HttpVPN for both developers and users. We envision our revenue coming mostly from the App Store.

The bottom line is this: the difference between Azure and HttpVPN is that former is an enterprise technology, while we are consumer/small business technology. Azure will target enterprise pain points, but it's extremely unlikely it will overlap HttpVPN territory, which is the land where there is no IT/Operations department - where only two actors live: a software product vendor and a non-technical application hosting person/business. HttpVPN is going to make this world livable for the first time ever.

Best regards from
UltiDev HttpVPN™ Product Director
and the UltiDev Team.

Please donate at http://www.ultidev.com/products/Donate.aspx to help us improve our products.
jtaylor
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 24, 2008 3:12:58 AM(UTC)
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I do not want to sound too much critical just very curious and cautious.
Sounds like you guys did not look into Windows Azure. You are missing the whole point of its connectivity features. It is exactly opposite to what you are describing. There is no need to do anything about routers and NAT or know anything about them. More over, user web apps deployed behind firewalls are not listening to any ports but instead create outbound socket connection to Azure network that is used to turned requests from internet clients (browsers) through Azure infrastructure. All these technical details are completely hidden from developers and irrelevant to their development process because Azure takes care of them silently. I wonder how HTTPVpn is planned to solve the same problem. I suspect you will have to do the same thing except Microsoft already done it. And to make something like this happen hosting environment requires a lot of network and horse power to keep massive number of open socket connections which Microsoft probably more capable of compare to a small company.

On another argument, Microsoft clearly states that Azure is not necessarily enterprise technology. In fact from technology perspective there is nothing “enterpise-ish” to it. It is meant for any size business including home environments. Technology itself requires no additional knowledge beyond writing traditional asp.net apps. Users pay per traffic, if there is no traffic – there is no cost. Exact numbers are not known so it is hard to compare HTTPVpn offering to Azure from that perspective. One point you are right about, Azure does not have any plans (that I know of) to create any App stores. In my mind this leaves Ultidev with only one distinguished feature, hosting branded social/commercial network of custom apps. This is nice, and I look forward to use it if it picks up enough to help me sell my apps but it has nothing to do with technology. I am personally now looking to use Azure on the technology side and somebody else’s web site(s), possibly even Ultidev (if it turns to be good for that) to sell my apps.

J.Taylor
Ultidev Team
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:41:24 AM(UTC)
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Hello, J!

Thank you much for sharing your insight. You sound absolutely reasonable and admittedly you know more about Azure then we do. We spent some time looking into it soon after PDC, but not much lately. At that moment we found Azure site being awfully short on any meaningful information. We will take another look at it, and will appreciate if you provide links to MS docs where they explain their connectivity features.

We do something similar to creating outbound connections, but as you noted, keeping them opened at all times is going to be expensive. For that reason we do not keep connections constantly open and therefore we will be able to achieve greater density of hosted applications per Portal server compared to Azure.

Now, assuming MS provides easily-redistributable behind-the-firewall connectivity component (please let us know if there is a link to prove or disprove the assumption), there one more important value point of HttpVPN: inside the network your web application is hosted and accessible via its internal address, like http://machinename/app/ and is completely independent of HttpVPN. From inside-the-LAN vantage point, it is a regular web application, and HttpVPN simply does not exist. Only when accessing the app on the Internet does the HttpVPN come in. To illustrate it with an example, if you have a web app with two pages, Page1.htm and Page2.htm, where Page1 has a link to Page 2: <a href='http://machinename/App/Page2.htm'>Page 2</a>, loading Page1 into browser inside the LAN will show the link without changes, while the same link on HttpVPN Portal will be Portal-based and looking something like <a href='https://portalhostname.com/appID/page1Url'>Page 2</a>.
This means that even if you lose HttpVPN service for whatever reason, you lose neither your data, nor functionality. We don't know if Azure does that (and now we are afraid to go out on the limb saying it won't - we'll just say we are under impression it won't), but if it does not, then the only URL allowing access to your app will be Azure-based. This means higher risks for small time clients, because these days it does not take a court order to disconnect someone's service for supposedly improper content - it only takes RIAA or someone else to complain/accuse and a small user loses a service with no explanation and no recourse. We believe we provide a very safe model by not having shifted any of the critical parts to the could: app hosts control their data and their apps - all we provide is connectivity and security. We think, given the choice, people will opt for keeping their data and apps close instead of trusting it to the cloud.

Once again, thank you much for your input!

Best regards,
UltiDev Team.
Please donate at http://www.ultidev.com/products/Donate.aspx to help us improve our products.
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